next »

[Collider]

That's all well and good, Blass, despite your seeping condescension of anyone who doesn't like the current ending.  The fault in your argument and subsequently, your position, is that you are basing it on an assumption, one that BioWare has specifically not backed.  I'm talking about the facts of what is presented, both subtle and obvious.  You can "What If..." in perpetuity, doesn't mean that any of it is accurate.

Yes, yes, I know all about James and the humming noise.  The boy Shepard sees that no one else seems to notice throughout the game (despite his picture on the wall of missing on the Citadel docks).  The weird groaning noises when Shep first meets the kid.  I've read it.  It's conjecture based on a handful of incredibly circumstantial occurrences.  It's people desperately looking for a meaning that simply isn't there.  That alone should be a red flag that the ending is an overwhelming failure.

Furthermore, let's just assume for a minute that you're right, and after Harbinger's beam or even after Illusive Man killing Anderson, it's all a dream, of sorts.  Lots of problems with that.  First off, it means that Shep failed to stop the Reapers.  Humanity would all be dead, negating the future narrator - assuming the narrator is real. 

If we take it as the narrator being part of that hallucination, we're still left with the fact that Shepard is dead and failed to stop the Reapers, making the god-child bit extraneous and inconsequential, so why show it at all?  There's no point because it has no bearing on the physical reality where the war is lost and everyone is being harvested.  This concept also suffers from the fact that Shepard is suddenly acquiescent to the god-child or adversity in general, compared to the previous 100+ hours of game play where he's headstrong in the face of challenge.  It's his defining characteristic.  That's a major character writing flaw.

If we take it that Shep actually makes it to the top of the citadel and has a conversation with the god-child then it's no longer a dream-state event and is actually occurring within the physical universe, even if that means it's happening in some sort of metaphysical sense.  In that case the event is real and has consequences, meaning that the other events are physically happening as well, including my team magically appearing on the Normandy across the galaxy, running away from the fight. 

So, either it's the thoughts inside Shepard's head in his final moments, in which case one portion of the ending cutscene invalidates the other and we're forced to accept 11th hour re-writes.  Or it's actually happening and you have all of the massive plot holes I've mentioned to explain, even with indoctrination.  It doesn't work as soon as you begin to break the indoctrination theory down into logical components.

Whether or not they plan more ME content or games doesn't change the fact that this is how Shepard's story ends.  At current, even if we assume your theory is right, there is either a massive plot hole-filled ending or no physical ending because Shepard is too busy rubbing his existential balls together in the greatest cosmic sack-rub of all time with the god-child, and I simply can't believe BioWare would be foolish enough to give the player zero resolution of the crisis each player has been trying to avert for 5 years.  What you're saying is that you are fine with this zero resolution sack-rub, I simply cannot say the same.  That doesn't mean I need a Michael Bay ending to be happy and your assertion of such sort of ignores the entire spectrum of grey between black and white.

 

[Blassreiter]

I can say the same of your argument which is entirely based on a strictly and overly literal interpretation of the text. Details are not frivolous it took a conscious decision and intent to put them there, they don't record dialogue, insert graphics and sound for no reason but to annoy you with having to think about what you are interacting with. This is of course where they screw up with things like limited art assets for things like the memory wall and someone just pastes the kid's image up because it's the only human child game asset they have to work with. As for a spectrum, I'm not talking about the one you're talking about- you clearly desire a rational, literal, explicit classic Hollywood style ending. It isn't about a good, bad, or bittersweet ending or any qualitative judgement on the ending; you are clearly articulating that you want one where most things are spelled out for you. The problem is Bioware created an ending that was intentionally open to interpretation with lots of details to tease and solicit discourse.

Shepherd is never portrayed as acquiescent to the Catalyst and the Catalyst presents its arguments in a rational manner. TIM and Saren weren't weak-willed characters that suddenly rolled over for the Reapers; their decisions were to them the best choices to make - their point of view heavily skewed by Reaper influence. It is made clear repeatedly in the game that indoctrination is powerful and can be slow and insidious. You're fine with Shepherd being more resistant to it than Benezia, a powerful Asari matriarch? There's a lot of dialogue in the game that shuffles between how other people perceive Shepherd and Shepherd's own self-depreciation as 'just a soldier'. This, the encounters with Kai Leng, and the places where in the course of things Shepherd comes up short (or at least feels they have) are clearly intended to humanize Shepherd and make them seem more vulnerable.

I would like to point out that in every decision Shepherd essentially wins or at least thinks they have; there's your crisis resolution. The existence of the stargazing narrator generally confirms this - the stargazer is a self-admitted unreliable narrator telling a story about Shepherd - the narrative of the games as played.

Harbinger's beam: Shepherd gets hit by the beam and has a moment of weakness in their near-death experience that they hallucinate the Citadel confrontation and the Catalyst which in reality is the Reapers trying to finally get a grip on Shepherd. This internal struggle presents Shepherd with the TIM/Saren/Kill Them All Options which are really Indoctrination/Indoctrination/Resist. What is shown after the choice is essentially a last gasp of Shepherd's free will or Shepherd's self-satisfaction with resisting the Reapers. What's not shown? Shepherd getting up and sabotaging the allied forces at the end (Indoctrinated) or getting up, going to the Citadel and pushing the Crucible's big red button for real.

Passing out on the Citadel: Shepherd in a state of shock and exhaustion is open to the Reapers attempting to take control (TIM just failed them). The Catalyst attempts to 'reason' with Shepherd, you make your choice. Same deal with Shepherd imagining whatever. Off screen Shepherd either gets up and helps the Reapers or pushes the big red button.

Talking to the Catalyst for real: Shepherd makes their decision. In the Kill the Reapers ending what is shown is what Shepherd thinks is happening as they are near death and can only assume the Catalyst was telling the truth. And then Shepherd comes to in the wreckage of the Citadel maybe it's destroyed - maybe it's not.

Stargazer: This is all a story told of how The Shepherd beat the Reapers because the story wouldn't be told otherwise.

But maybe it's because my first reaction when analyzing a narrative isn't to rage about 'plot-holes' but question why the parts that don't fit are problematic.

To be honest I think TIM suddenly magically gaining control of the Citadel, the fact that the Crucible wasn't designed by the Protheans (you know, like the mass relays and the Citadel - that makes it such a trustworthy superweapon), the fact that the Rachni have been manipulated to war and fought to near-extinction before, Vendettas implications of the nameless greater architect the Reapers serve, the fact that the Reaper's own origins are never addressed, or even that no one ever really knows what the Crucible does are more significant and bothersome gaps in the narrative for me. I don't really care for the superweapon schtick and didn't expect the Reaper conflict to be concluded in this game - just Shepherd's role in it - presumably gaining allied forces a way to level the field. Instead we got mystery superweapon and typical video game player performance/cutscene disparity sequences. So I'm actually a little disappointed on that level.

[Wazuka]

Bad news on indoctrination theory Blass, the fact that if you rush through the game and make bad decisions the only decision you get is to Destroy synths/reapers. If you went full retard it destroys earth but still destroys the reapers. If it's indoctrination why would the "minimalist Shep" only be given the chance to destroy the reapers BY THE REAPERS THEMSELVES.

And I don't find "all the little hints" towards indoctrination compelling. I don't see why it's so hard for people to just accept they rushed the ending and didn't really know how to end it. The iOS app even states they made delays to handle the ending and there was intense debate within the team right up until 2012.

It's a terrible ending for a whole host of reasons. It isn't artistic, it's autistic. I've played Mass Effect pretty hardcore since ME1 first came out, beat em all on Insanity, got into the nerd lore pretty deep. I hate it because it is a completely wasted chance at capping off a great series. Why didn't it have a text epilogue like baldur's gate or da:o at least that was unique to my 120+ hours of gameplay? Because it's a dream or a hashed out retelling of some legend?

- First, if it is indoctrination and Shepard lives there are a few issues. First, Bioware was dishonest with all their run up hype that all the choices we made would play a part in developing the post reaper invasion galaxy we've played in. And indoctrination leaves absolutely no closure to the ending. It means the reapers are still attacking, TIM is still on the loose, and Shep is in a pile of rubble and if you did really well on collecting those resources it was just a mind battle/dream you won but you are still fucked and probably going to die to reaper minions. Reapers keep on reaping, game over. I mean, come the fuck on. It's like if FF7 ended right as you enter the northern crater to battle Sephiroth. Why the fuck is Joker in transit and crash lands on Aite? Is it part of Sheps memory trying to create his own happy future or just really bad writing?

- Compelling evidence shows the planet that Joker lands on in the end is Aite ingame. Which has an unstable moon that is suppose to crash into the planet in "2 centuries" according to the ingame descriptions thoughout the series/me1. Lol.

- Let's say it isn't indoctrination and the ending is literal/reality. Mass relays destroy solar systems when destroyed. It says so right in the me2 and me3 codex. Now, I could have lived with all the current races basically sacrificing themselves for those that came to follow to have a fresh chance. They don't go that route. They go full retard with Joker on a random planet. Just terrible writing.

- The star child is a great example of a poorly executed deus ex machina.

- Why no showdown with Harbinger? Why is he relegated to a silent cameo after playing such a prominant role in ME2 and ME2 DLC?

- All the endings are ripped straight out of Deus Ex Machina. I mean seriously, lol.

- Why does mass effect 3 turn into a really bad gurren lagann copy in the last 15 minutes?

Edited from grammerz.

[Blassreiter]

Bad news on your theory Blass, the fact that if you rush through the game and make bad decisions the only decision you get is to Destroy synths/reapers. If you went full retard it destroys earth but still destroys the reapers. If it's indoctrination why would the "minimalist Shep" only be given the chance to destroy the reapers BY THE REAPERS THEMSELVES.

Maybe it's the equivalent of the Reapers telling Shepherd to suicide? Context can change the meaning of the scene.

[Collider]

Everything you've listed there Blass is based purely on an assumption of what is likely going on.  Any effective critical analysis has to be based on the information presented and not on possible scenarios if conditions X, Y and Z are met.  Your basing a theory on what isn't shown.  Shepard could be going to get a chicken pot pie for all we know too.  If it's what you want to believe, far be it for me to tell you otherwise, but it's barely supported in the confines of the game, and as that is the scope of the reality we have to work in, that's where I base my assessment.  

This ending has been the ending, give or take, since the script leak last year (I read the script after playing the actual game).  I wish I could say it was just them rushing it, but I genuinely believe they thought this was a good ending to the trilogy.  That or some senior creative director has a massive stick up his ass and doubled down on this specific story.

There's so many more plot holes and inconsistencies, it's crazy.  Here's hoping they fix this post haste.

[Wazuka]

Maybe it's the equivalent of the Reapers telling Shepherd to suicide? Context can change the meaning of the scene.

You're either trolling or work at Bioware. I give you 9/10 either way.

I find myself in the enormous player category of just finding the ending incomplete and dumb. Regardless if it's indoctrination or not. I really don't care if they change it, I don't demand they do, but I can hardly blame players for asking they do considering they didn't deliver on their own hype at all regarding the finale. But I do want them to know I think it sucked major ass.

[Blassreiter]

The point of an ending left open to interpretation is for the audience to interpret and discuss it. You keep adhering to the idea that the ending is entirely explicit and literal when it's not. Your interpretations involve generally ignoring the greater sphere of lore and game dialogue in order to present the ending in the most absurd literal manner possible.

The scenarios presented are totally reasonable interpretations given the events of the up until where I posit what happens *after* Shepherd's hallucination, dream, or if you prefer confusingly contradictory and disjointed ending.

[Blassreiter]

You're either trolling or work at Bioware. I give you 9/10 either way.

You're insisting that all the ending scenarios have to be able to co-exist of which there is no requirement. If you play a fail Shepherd your only option is to destroy the Reapers and Earth killing everyone and losing ME3 - which, btw Bioware said was possible. Or maybe it's indoctrination and they tell Shepherd to off themselves because they suck so bad they're not even worth controlling?

[Collider]

Gotta be trolling.  No one is so dense that they consider throwing darts in the dark to be a sport.  At least I bloody hope not.

I'll give it to you though, Blass.  I commend your imagination as every factual point Wazuka or I have made and supported by clean and defined in-game references has been countered by a "Maybe..." statement or a retort that simply states our lack of understanding of the grander scheme.  Must be exhausting.

Good to know that you're a fan of these sorts of endings though.  I'll get you Matrix 2 and 3, as well as Star Trek 5 for Christmas.

[Wazuka]

The point of an ending left open to interpretation is for the audience to interpret and discuss it. You keep adhering to the idea that the ending is entirely explicit and literal when it's not. Your interpretations involve generally ignoring the greater sphere of lore and game dialogue in order to present the ending in the most absurd literal manner possible.

The scenarios presented are totally reasonable interpretations given the events of the up until where I posit what happens *after* Shepherd's hallucination, dream, or if you prefer confusingly contradictory and disjointed ending.

Sounds to me like the overwhelming opinion is the ending sucks. I also agree and interpret the ending to be the result of a rushed game. It sucks to see mass effect pretty much turn into LOST at the finale.

I'll just leave these developer quotes here.

"We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…" - Mike Gamble

"I think the exciting thing in the final chapter of the series is going to be just seeing where everything goes that we started" Casey Hudson CES 2010

"As Mass Effect 3 is the end of the planned trilogy, the developers are not constrained by the necessity of allowing the story to diverge, yet also continue into the next chapter. This will result in a story that diverges into wildly different conclusions based on the player's actions in the first two chapters." - Casey Hudson

"I honestly think the player base is going to be really happy with the way we've done it. You had a part in it. Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

Lol at this last one.

“Whether you’re happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an
ending. BioWare will not do a “Lost” and leave fans with more questions
than answers after finishing the game.”

[Wazuka]

Don't forget Evangelion, Collider. Never forget.

I don't agree with your opinion/take on the ending Mitter but I do appreciate the different perspective. You've always had a good knack for tackling these things. And recommending/reviewing good animes.

[Lorn]

So I haven't played ME3 because I refused to play any of the ME games until I could have the money and time to start from the beginning. However with all the stink being made about the ending be pretty much any critical review I use and respect I had to take a look.

A few hours later ---->
Yep bullshit.
Do whatever you want, in the end no matter what you did it goes like this:
Godchild: Nope, can't do that, bio and robots will never get along.
Player: Are you sure, cause I was able to...
Godchild: Nope.
Player: Why?
Godchild: Because I said so.
Player: But...
Godchild: No buts young man. Now it's not all downers, here, you like moral choices right? here's three, go for it, have fun.
Player: Ok, well, what are the consequence?
Godchild: Hm, well, which color do you like more: green, red or blue?

Considering how completely FUCKING AMAZING the rest of the game's story that I looked into outside of that ending was, I cannot believe how people that were completely emotionally invested in those story lines and characters from 3 games ago could feel.

You know how many games have scenes this good in the number this series seems to have?

Mass Effect 3: Thane Dies (Romanced)	powered by Aeva

Seriously....holy shit.

It's like you made a collection of art pieces and decided to make the last one just a piece of shit on a blank paper. It makes you question whether you can enjoy the rest of the work knowing what it culminates in? Do you know how much I wanted to play this series? I'm not sure if I even want to anymore. Shit. Fuck. Balls.

[Xallan]

Good to know that you're a fan of these sorts of endings though.  I'll get you Matrix 2 and 3, as well as Star Trek 5 for Christmas.

Oh you 

[Faisrole]

I don't want a different ending, I just want someone to make some fucking sense of what we were given.
How did choices matter, I mean if you go paragon you're basically painting this story of how hope and determination can cut through the most impossible of odds yet it's the same fucking result as being ruthless and bloodthirsty.

They essentially just boiled the ending down to the antithesis of the series, that choice is an illusion there is only fate.


Also Collider: the original leaked ending had Shepard becoming a reaper to fight the reapers, having a squadmate become a reaper, or having TIM become a reaper I believe.

[Collider]

Ooooh, seriously?  Then what the fuck did I read on NeoGAF?  Interesting.