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[Twona]

Hey new guild!
I'm building a new PC next week and I'm currently behind on today's technology so I thought I'd pick your brains to get the most for my money. I have about a $1200 limit MAX (preferably after taxes). I can build computers by myself and what-not so assembly costs aren't an issue. Also, I bought a new hard drive about a month ago, so I don't need one.

Here's the website to the shop I'm buying it from:
http://expc.ca/c-129-System_Package.html

I'm thinking of buying one of these 3 system packages:
1) $899.99
INTEL CORE i5-2500K overclock 3.3GHz CPU
KINGSTON 8GB DDR3 1333 MEMORY
2TB SATA2 7200RPM HDD
ASUS 24X DVDRW
ASUS P8P67 LE R3 MOTHERBOARD
NVIDIA GTX550/ATI 5830 VIDEO CARD
ANTEC DF-10 CASE
COOLER MASTER 550W

2) $1199 (should be less than 1200 after taxes minus the HDD)
INTEL CORE I7-2600 3.4GHz CPU
KINGSTON 8GB DDR3 1600 MEMORY
2TB SATA2 7200RPM
SONY 24X DVDRW LIGHTSCRIPE
MSI P67A-G45-B3 MOTHERBOARD
NVIDIA GTX560 1GB VIDEOCARD
APEVIA X- TELSTAR CASE
COOLER MASTER 700W

3) $999
INTEL CORE I7-870 2.93 GHz CPU
KINGSTON 8GB DDR3 1333 MEMORY
2 TB SATA2 7200RPM HDD
ASUS 24X DVD±RW SATA BURNER
ASUS P7H55-M-PRO MOTHERBOARD
ATI 6850 1GB VIDEO CARD
ANTEC DF-10 CASE
COOLER MASTER 600W

So, basically what I'm asking is.. which is the best bang for its buck? Is an i7 worth it? People I've talked to said i5 is better for gaming because its interlaced (or something like that) and the i7 is only needed if you're going to do lots of rendering. These "system packages" aren't set in stone, I can mix and match parts (for example, removing the hard drive from the package since I dont need one).

Anyways, if someone could take a look through the site and if you have time, see what I can mix and match to get the most out of my dollar, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks alot

[Audere]

The i7-2600k is a really solid piece, and I'd highly recommend going that route.  Make sure it's the k though.  That being said, the i5-2500k really isn't much of a downgrade at all.  In fact, you'd be better off with an i5 2500k than an i7 2600 sans k.  I'd have to call you absolutely insane if you didn't buy a Sandy Bridge processor.  I really like how the first system looks for the price with two exceptions.

First, I'd bump up the power supply just a little bit.  I always overdo power supplies by a lot because it's the one part that I absolutely won't mess around with ever (for perspective, I have a 1000W in my machine).  You don't need to go as crazy as I do by any means, but I wouldn't go with less than 650W.  I'd also very highly recommend a Corsair PSU, but that's personal preference.  Cooler Master is perfectly decent.

Second, you'll want a video card that isn't a piece of shit.  I'd recommend taking that up to a Radeon 6950.  The 1GB version will be fine unless you have an enormous monitor that runs 2560x1600 or higher.

I'm assuming that'll leave a bit of money leftover for an after-market cooler, so do it and overclock the shit out off your Sandy Bridge.

[Twona]

Thanks for the prompt response!
I've always been terrified of overclocking anything on my computer since I cant afford to replace anything that breaks for a few years - also, I dont know how so you'd have to teach me. Secondly, would I need additional cooling to overclock my processor? In the summer time, my past PCs have started to overheat until I open up the side and blow a house fan into it =\.

[Twona]

Also, what are your thoughts on a cheap SSD (100GB or so)? Are they worth it? Doesn't seam like you can fit enough on their to make it worth it since windows alone is 15GB or so

[Audere]

Sandy Bridge processors are the easiest things to overclock ever.  They're also much much easier to keep cool.  While you could probably get away with a moderate overclock on the stock cooler for a Sandy Bridge, you'll definitely do better with an aftermarket cooler.  A decent air cooler with push/pull setup would be fine, but a water cooler would be waaaaaay better.  Corsair's H60 seems to be the trendy choice right now.  Rookey's our resident water cooling pro, so I'm sure he'll pop in here at some point and give you his thoughts.

How to overclock a Sandy Bridge, link courtesy of Rookey: http://www.clunk.org.uk/reviews/sandy-bridge-overclocking-guide-for-beginners.html

An SSD is the single biggest performance upgrade you can get.  I have the Corsair F-120 myself and love it.  The trick is that you have to have a second drive in addition.  Use the second drive for most of your data storage, and load the games you're currently playing on your SSD, rotating them out as you get new ones.  For bonus credit, move your save game files to your other drive or a flash drive when you uninstall.  For reference, I have WoW, SC2, The Witcher, and Dragon Age II on my 120 GB SSD, with 24.7 GB free.  Absolutely worth every penny.

[Twona]

Glad to hear they're easy to OC... Starting to get expensive though with an aftermarket heatsink and a SSD (There's no way water cooling will fit my budget). I currently have a cheapo 2TB 5900RPM HDD i was going use, but after what you said it looks like i should probably get the SSD instead of using this POS to run my games off of.

[Twona]

Okay... Here's what I have so far:
INTEL CORE i5-2500K overclock 3.3GHz CPU - $210
KINGSTON 8GB DDR3 1333 MEMORY - $80
ASUS P8P67 LE R3 MOTHERBOARD - $155
CORSAIR FORCE 2.5'' 120GB SSD - $245
Asus Radeon EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/1GD5 1GB - $270
ANTEC DF-10 CASE - $77
COOLER MASTER 650W (much cheaper than Corsair) - $109

Totals up to $1146 without a heatsink (No idea which one to get). This is the very top of my budget... but I guess it'll have to do

[Bleeds]

You should get DDR3 1600 memory if your going to overclock.  Newegg actually has a good deal going on for the G.Skill Ripjaws

I'd get them as an upgrade right now but im running triple channel.

As far as heatsinks go I believe the Noctua NH-D14 is the best air cooler right now.  It's a beast though.  I recently replaced my Noctua NH-U12P with the Corsair H50 and have been pretty happy with it.  Got it at Best Buy for $40

[Rookey]

you'd be better off with an i5 2500k than an i7 2600 sans k.

truth, get the K

Second, you'll want a video card that isn't a piece of shit.  I'd recommend taking that up to a Radeon 6950.  The 1GB version will be fine unless you have an enormous monitor that runs 2560x1600 or higher.

truth, the 6950 1GB is awesome. Be careful which one you get. The blower type reference coolers can get very loud. Depending on your preference getting a more custom cooler that circulates the hot air inside your case might be worth the extra money and case fan requirements. The MSI Twin Frozr series are extremely high performance in terms of cooling and noise, but the majority of the heat escapes into your case. Plan your case air flow design accordingly.

You should get DDR3 1600 memory if your going to overclock.

true for non-Sandybridge, false for Sandy. For some reason Sandybridge gets very little performance increase from faster RAM. One explanation I read was that since OCing a Sandy leaves the bus clock alone, the RAM is not left behind in terms of speed. The Sandy performance increase between 1333 and 1600 ram is below 5%, and any speed above 1600 is sub 1%.

IMO, theres typically a solid priority ranked list of cost effective ways to up your computer performance.

1. get a good cpu
2. get a good gpu
3. cool and overclock (but not too much) that cpu
4. get faster ram for non-Sandybridge systems
5. get a medium sized SSD for your OS, and a few frequently used apps
6. get a second gpu and cfx/sli it
7. get 1600 ram for Sandybridge systems
8. instead of #5, get a large sized SSD and put all your apps on it
9. get 1600+ ram for Sandybridge systems


So, definitely worry about overclocking that beautiful Sandy before worrying about purchasing a SSD. With a modest overclock, nearing the point of diminishing returns where it starts requiring large increases in voltage, and with a good cooling solution, your cpu will run cooler than a stock cpu and will likely have a equal or longer lifespan.

Noctua is the undisputed king of air. Their 120mm fans are rocket science level. But when you are considering overclocking a new sandy bridge for longterm performance gaming, there is a handful of good reasons to cool it with a Corsair or ANtec cooler and no reason not to.

These newish factory sealed cpu water coolers are super easy to install, usually easier than a large air cooler. They add almost no weight to the motherboard compared to the large air coolers that add a couple kilos hanging several inches off the mobo surface. They allow you to exhaust their hot air directly outside the case rather than circulating it around inside your case. The performance levels are comparable to the best air coolers, with Noctua's flagship design winning by only 0-5 degrees celcius depending on the reference test report and water cooler model. The average noise level is also comparable to the best air coolers, only a few decibels more than the leading air. These coolers are also very reliable, there are almost no reports of mid usage failures and most of those are due to really silly user errors.

I believe the 5 current models of these coolers are; the Corsair h50, h60, h70, and the Antec Kuhler 620 and 920. The h50 was the first, works well, but new models work better and lowered the h50 price to the lowest of all 5. The h60 and 620 are marketing counterparts, they sport thin radiators and small efficient pumps. They perform better than the h50 by a small amount despite being smaller but are also pricier. The h70 and the 920 are the beasts with the h70 performing slightly better in most tests. They got a fat radiator sandwiched between two powerful fans. These are the top performers and if you don't care about noise you can crank up the fans and actually beat Noctua's performance. Of course these would be the most expensive.

I wouldn't normally be throwing a sales pitch for any product, but I feel people are only hurting themselves with their unsubstantiated fear of these products.

You could go hybrid and slap some awesome Noctua 120mm cpu fans on a Corsair hX0 radiator.

[Bleeds]

You could go hybrid and slap some awesome Noctua 120mm cpu fans on a Corsair hX0 radiator.

Yeah Rookey, thats exactly what I did.  Used both fans from my NH-U12P with the H50 in a push/pull config.

Also, the Corsair H80 and H100 are coming out soon.  H100 has a double radiator with enough space for 4 fans.  Thats pretty sick.

[Rookey]

Yeah Rookey, thats exactly what I did.  Used both fans from my NH-U12P with the H50 in a push/pull config.

Also, the Corsair H80 and H100 are coming out soon.  H100 has a double radiator with enough space for 4 fans.  Thats pretty sick.

Need a case to accommodate a 240mm rad.  Usually budget cases dont have that. But the h100 looks like a damn fine product.

Okay... Here's what I have so far:
INTEL CORE i5-2500K overclock 3.3GHz CPU - $210
KINGSTON 8GB DDR3 1333 MEMORY - $80
ASUS P8P67 LE R3 MOTHERBOARD - $155
CORSAIR FORCE 2.5'' 120GB SSD - $245
Asus Radeon EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/1GD5 1GB - $270
ANTEC DF-10 CASE - $77
COOLER MASTER 650W (much cheaper than Corsair) - $109

Totals up to $1146 without a heatsink (No idea which one to get). This is the very top of my budget... but I guess it'll have to do

You can save some cash by getting a cheaper micro atx Sandybridge mobo, if you can handle only one gpu slot and only 2 ram slots with limited sata connections. They get as low as 80$ and I used one in the comp build I made for my dad.

But really what is causing your budget issues is the SSD. If you drop that you can properly cool and overclock, get some power supply headroom, more HDD capacity, and still have cash left over. The SSD mostly helps with boot times, app load times, and general snappiness of internet browsing and windows file browsing. Those are tasty benefits at a level that no other upgrade can achieve, but a gamer needs to take care of business first and feed his games enough cpu clocks to make them and you happy.

[Twona]

Hmm, as I said I just bought a 2 TB HD about a month ago, but is only 5900 RPM... Is that going to limit my game performance, or just the load times if I dont get a SSD? In the end, I dont really care about load times, I just want all the games I can play to run completely smooth

[Rookey]

Usually, games access the hdd as infrequently as possible, loading up everything relevant into the RAM during 'loading' times. WoW does this. A 7200 hdd would be good to have, but the performance increase would be incomparable to a SSD, the increase being dozens of times greater. Just understand that hdd or ssd performance is for drive read and writes and most games usually do not read or write to a harddrive in a crucial way during main gameplay.

Games that might benefit from a SSD during main gameplay would be experiencing stutters without it. The performance difference between a HDD and a SSD is so great that if a game could benefit from a SSD during gameplay, then the game would not be running very well at all without it. One game that comes to mind is Elder Scroll 4: Oblivion. As you take your character across the vast landscape, the game will load textures in clumps as you approach a section of the landscape grid. Whenever the game loads the textures of a grid section, I get choppy fps for about a second and sometimes the game freezes for a small fraction of a second. Running the game off a SSD might reduce or eliminate this effect, but I'm not sure if its loading these textures from the HDD on demand or if the textures are already on the RAM and it needs to process it in some way and its consuming that many cpu cycles to do so. Either way, its was a very poor way to handle texture loading by Bethesda. You should not expect games to work like this. A method that loads textures in smaller clumps would have been much better.

Do not confuse this effect with a similar symptom caused by having too little memory. When a system has too little memory, it will use hdd space as extra RAM. Its called page filing, and it usually causes massive system hanging when it needs to use it. Programs expect RAM access to be fast, and an hdd posing as RAM is comparatively extremely sluggish.

[Twona]

Okay, what I got from that is a SSD won't increase my in game performance, and will only significantly decrease my load times... Correct?
Also, my 5900 RPM HDD won't effect my game performance because it is all loaded into the RAM anyways?
I don't really care about load times, I just want games to run s
smoothly and appearently that will be fine with my current HDD (i always get a SSD when I have a bigger budget).
Without an SSD I can invest in a better heat sink and OC my processor more (assuming I figure out how to so it safely with that guide)

Thanks for the help guys.

[Lorn]

The price/performance difference between 5900 and 7200 is almost non-existent though. Imo it's a very minor cost jump for a performance increase (though again, not really in terms of wow) though from my shopping around the price difference starts at almost nothing below 500GB and starts to become a little noticeable above 1TB. 7200 is the speed most go with for that reason, at the moment it is pretty much the sweet spot for price per power; go lower and you start to give up too much for a very small amount of savings, go up and you start to overpay.

The problem with HDD to SSD  (or 7200 to 10k rpm for HDD) is the price/performance jump being a huge deal when you are paying several hundred dollars for less than 100GB of space in the case of some SSDs. Which means unless you are going to utilize all of what you are paying through the nose for, it'd be better to wait for the technology to become cheeper.